Episode 16 – Andreas Eriksson

00:00:00: An artwork can't be made before you make it or after.

00:00:04: It has to be made exactly when you do it, so that's why take your decisions at the time also.

00:00:10: Says Andreas Ericsson who I met for another episode of Gallery Week in Berlin – The Art Podcast.

00:00:17: My name is Inuma Okoro and i'm delighted speaking with Swedish artist Andreas Ericksen whose based on metal plana Born in Sweden, Andreas Ericsson has a practice centered on the conceptual and felt exchange with the nature an environment that surrounds him.

00:00:38: His work oscillates between figuration and abstraction... ...and is deeply concerned with themes of perception memory materiality and making whether working within a range of mediums from painting sculpture print textiles drawing and photography.

00:00:59: Ericsson's work is poetic, evocative and thought-provoking.

00:01:05: Before we dive into the heart of things what do you think as a biggest stereotype about Berlin?

00:01:10: And is it true?

00:01:14: It´s very open city!

00:01:17: Yeah...and its true.

00:01:19: What´s your favourite thing about Berlin?

00:01:21: I think they are all the same.

00:01:24: They're so open.

00:01:25: And since this is an art podcast I have to ask this, what's a piece of art that you can't stop thinking about?

00:01:31: I think it is the Koenings painting from nineteen seventy-five whose name was written in water.

00:01:37: It has followed me since i was a kid.

00:01:38: ,I think

00:01:39: You're painter but also work with sculpture textiles photography film and prints.

00:01:44: In two thousand eleven you represented Sweden at The Venice Biennale alongside via Backstream for the Nordic Pavilion.

00:01:51: .You've had solo exhibitions across the world in Kyoto Berlin, Geneva, Reykjavik on the list could go on and on.

00:02:00: When I was thinking about your oeuvre i kept finding myself imagining oh this seems to be an artist who has really spent time cultivating relationships with different aspects of life which then inform you practice a history of painting perception The natural world whether birds forests landscapes or the shift in seasons, but it takes time to foster a relationship of any kind.

00:02:32: And so for me this makes your practice and your artwork feel both beautiful and poignant.

00:02:40: Your art to me seems deeply connected to honoring time and nurturing what feels alive for you.

00:02:49: So I thought maybe we could begin by just talking about some of these relationships like thinking.

00:02:55: So the first relationship I'm interested in is your relationship with a natural world?

00:03:00: Yeah, it's not like that.

00:03:01: I had a sense of understanding... ...I want to do this.

00:03:04: It's more like sensations That happened very early In my childhood that i have memories Of looking into a pile of snow and getting snow blind And having strong sense of You know Like appearance or how you say Strong life-feeling.

00:03:20: And that was an early childhood and over time as an adult.

00:03:23: How did How did you nurture that?

00:03:26: Even if as a child, You couldn't name it.

00:03:28: When you began to recognize what It was how Did you deepen and nurture That relationship?

00:03:32: yeah I mean there Was the sensation that i thought everyone had you know There was took A long time before i realized.

00:03:40: Maybe this is not How people usually react To painterly interesting parts of nature.

00:03:48: i Mean my usual.

00:03:50: my longing two different spots or places always is a visual.

00:03:54: If I've been travelling for long time and longing back to Mediplan, there's usually...I don't really understand it It's not logical to me.

00:04:03: so start seeing pictures.

00:04:05: So its more like the visual things comes before knowledge somehow Or thinking

00:04:12: And just listening because i'm a visual person as well.

00:04:18: another form of knowing.

00:04:20: The knowing comes after seeing the pictures, you know like seeing their sensations.

00:04:25: it's not that I'm...the knowing comes with the picture!

00:04:30: Yes yes well here we could get into a what do you call it?

00:04:35: A definition about knowing.

00:04:36: We see or You can say..we see and feel And then try to reflect but the feeling is almost instantaneous even if we don't stop and acknowledge it.

00:04:49: I think when i first encountered your work, a few years ago you had this big exhibition here in Berlin where I just moved to Berlin And...I remember standing infront of really large scale paintings looking at all these colors that are so affected by color myself.

00:05:11: The best way I could describe it is the sense of flying, because you felt like an aerial view.

00:05:20: It's also very deeply connected to that sensation with snow.

00:05:24: You know there's a long distance and suddenly we have close?

00:05:28: I'm always thinking about where i am externally But also in some sense there's a felt-sense of where I am internally, what is happening with my internal world and my internal landscape.

00:05:39: Do you reflect about the inner & outer journey?

00:05:41: Like do you reflect alot on the inner&outer threshold because i feel as though that something has evoked into your work.

00:05:49: Yeah...I mean..i don't have any strategy regarding these things but uh.... I can see theres difference between if i sit in nature and do a painting, or if I sit at the studio to paint.

00:06:03: they become different.

00:06:04: So just being there is usually how i work you know?

00:06:10: I take a lot of walks hiking on my small mountain then I collect things unconsciously.

00:06:20: it's not that I think oh this can bring with me.

00:06:22: but I go around looking for sensations And then I collect them unconsciously and see how they show up in the canvas somehow, but at the end it always feels like its an inner landscape.

00:06:39: That i'm using the outer landscape to build this inner landscape.

00:06:43: So in some way a landscape is something that's remembered and internalized?

00:06:48: In some capacity?

00:06:49: Yeah!

00:06:49: It looks like a toolbox.

00:06:50: maybe

00:06:51: The connections I keep making are meditative, contemplation silence because all of those elements are necessary to be able to even recognize what you're feeling.

00:07:05: This may not seem directly related to art making but I think it is in my mind.

00:07:10: So many different layers in art-making...I mean i'm not in the studio thinking that I am making art.

00:07:15: Absolutely Not!

00:07:16: You know?

00:07:17: What do they feel like doing this in a studio?

00:07:21: It's like trying to figure out myself, and I can't find a better way... ...to handle the time with.

00:07:27: So it is not…I don't have an agenda in the art world or something you know?

00:07:33: With this!

00:07:33: This is much more personal.

00:07:35: I just want see what happens when i put things on canvas And I love material of paint.

00:07:41: so if would do project feels strange.

00:07:49: I do some teaching in art school recently and they all talk about the projects you're doing.

00:07:54: It's really strange that it is too personal for me to be a project, like having kids?

00:08:02: Would we ever call them a project?

00:08:03: or my partner would say this is something much more intimate.

00:08:09: So its an extension of your view?

00:08:11: Yeah!

00:08:11: Its an extension.

00:08:13: maybe... describes me somehow, it's like a mirror of me.

00:08:18: It is almost as if the paintings are actually a reflection...like a mirroring you know?

00:08:24: Sometimes I feel that the painting is just like water surface that reflects something somewhere else Like real thing is somewhere else.

00:08:34: Which is so interesting because your work invites us to really slow down and look at.

00:08:39: I think all artwork sort of should do that, but some art work is more able to do that than others.

00:08:46: But there's this invitation that you really kind see and map out what we are experiencing.

00:08:54: You have to slow down a look at it And be patient Which makes me feel like your art Is an example.

00:09:04: how i imagine Art can be A window Channel vehicle, encounter whatever you want to call it.

00:09:12: That really invites us also be with ourselves and I'm wondering what do think about that line of thought?

00:09:19: I like that!

00:09:19: And i also think...I want my paintings to be pre-verbal Like a small kid who doesn't have the language.

00:09:27: Something autistic is there.

00:09:29: It's non verbal language Of silence.

00:09:37: We have to let things be like that.

00:09:41: Which also sounds what you aim towards.

00:09:44: when say, You don't have strategy and try to control What happens in the studio?

00:09:49: Sounds an element of surrender In some way?

00:09:53: No it's pure Surrender is when trying to control things.

00:09:57: I think

00:09:57: You think so really.

00:10:00: Yeah then give up yourself then Interesting.

00:10:03: See i understand surrender as and allowing, like to surrender whatever desires happen whether through you or...

00:10:12: I know what you mean.

00:10:13: Yeah yeah i understand that but you could see it the other way also To really be able let things happened by itself.

00:10:21: The more your start control thing ,the less u understand It's a path that you just follow And that path belongs not me..I mean everyone.

00:10:30: So I feel more of medium in this sense.

00:10:32: Then words are destroying these.

00:10:35: For me, I want to have that quietness.

00:10:38: It has to be totally quiet and pre-verbal.

00:10:41: somehow You know?

00:10:44: Sometimes people put words on things like an oak tree.

00:10:50: Someone decided the name of this is an oak And i think it's so terrible!

00:10:55: Such a terrible act To say something like that beautiful creature and then we lose the connection with a real oak tree when someone call it an Oak Tree.

00:11:07: So in some sense, what you just say to name an Oak Tree is take away our ability really encountering the Oak Tree?

00:11:13: You're speaking again this...to be in relationship but other body.

00:11:19: In some sense It's how I hear it How i understand it

00:11:22: And also do..I thought of now When your named that tree an Oak tree uh...you'll should do project.

00:11:32: So yes, I completely agree with that.

00:11:35: In still in the same vein of allowing things to be or kind of... I don't know sinking into the consciousness of things are into this space and which Things can come forth.

00:11:46: then you engage with it.

00:11:49: How does some of that even speak to?

00:11:52: Because your work really-I Really think that you're concerned about how we see like maybe how you See And Then The rest Of Us do whatever you want to with the work, but perception.

00:12:04: And I'm thinking one piece or some element of your worth that comes to my mind immediately are the bronze casting of birds that fly into your window.

00:12:18: and so many of us who have glass doors or panels...I've experienced it at many times while writing where you hear something and I see the little bird, then they have all these feelings.

00:12:31: They're both beautiful and tragic in a way which is what life is too!

00:12:37: What moved you to make those works?

00:12:39: How do you connect that with our own human encounter?

00:12:42: because there's some...

00:12:43: I mean, there's no strategy here either.

00:12:47: I was sitting in the studio with a blank canvas and the bird went... ...I just built this studio but then the bird flew into that new window which i put up at the studio And my reaction is so strong!

00:12:58: That I realized it was something more.

00:13:01: What happened?

00:13:02: Was connected to me very strongly.. ..and didn't know why or how.

00:13:07: So I just took the bird, put it in a freezer and kept it.

00:13:10: And thought about it... ...and then i was in bed maybe two or three months later woken up in the morning.. ..and then like fuck that birds saw an illusion In The Window!

00:13:18: And believed in That

00:13:19: Illusion!!

00:13:20: And thats also back to this pile of snow again.... ....And Thats Also What I Do Every.

00:13:24: You Know.

00:13:24: I Was Sitting In Front Of A White Canvas Trying To Believe In This The Snow

00:13:27: Again!!!

00:13:28: And This

00:13:28: Happened!!!!

00:13:29: So what I can see?

00:13:30: you know at the same time I was eight month old and my parents abandoned me.

00:13:34: so there was probably like you know, like a total projection instead of the breast or whatever.

00:13:43: You know?

00:13:44: That was...the visual experience.

00:13:46: Is that you allow space for things to rise up?

00:13:50: You allow space to listen even the pausing To recognize this reaction Even if we didn't know what it is.

00:13:57: We are so strong and needed to sit with It as way allowing space.

00:14:03: And I think when we allows space That is when we are really in dialogue with whatever you want to call that other kind of consciousness or that and also these Other bodies like you were in relationship with that bird.

00:14:20: In some capacity,

00:14:22: it's so much about Letting the ego go.

00:14:25: You know as soon as your ambition have an ambition?

00:14:29: Then you fucked.

00:14:30: then they lose their connection with things.

00:14:33: So can't be ambitious!

00:14:34: You must have practices at feed this even if you're not thinking about them as practices.

00:14:39: So I'm really interested in, because this plays directly into the things that we create and bring to our world.

00:14:47: what is your lived experience like when you are not at a studio?

00:14:50: Yeah i don't have so much.

00:14:51: it's more cooking for my kids...I've been renovating my house also taking care of my kids.

00:14:57: basically That´s why I do what im doing here in the studio.

00:15:01: You are caring people and things.

00:15:04: All these things are connected to me.

00:15:08: You're tending, you're attending life into space and I think that shows up in your work...in your art.

00:15:16: What does it mean for you see?

00:15:17: well?

00:15:18: what is the meaning of looking at things?

00:15:20: It means seeing comes automatically when i relax When i don't think about it.

00:15:29: Be myself.

00:15:30: so I have to have the paintings for maybe.

00:15:32: I don't paint a long time on each painting But I have two have them four longtime in this studio To slowly, slowly Find their own you know path.

00:15:43: it's a little bit like I'm going around and then look And look and then i go an may be Have A coffee and when?

00:15:49: Go and have The coffee.

00:15:50: I see something On the left side and that was oh shit That's a color there.

00:15:54: that color is connected to Something and Then I start.

00:15:58: So this is your relationship also with painting and process?

00:16:02: Yes.

00:16:02: And how about material, why did you make the birds sculptures supposed to paint them?

00:16:09: How do you decide your materials?

00:16:11: I mean if i would have painted it might be an illustration of something.

00:16:17: The sculptures are just ready-made.

00:16:19: almost There's more conceptual works like thoughts that connected somehow But they're all connected to painting.

00:16:29: I mean, the bird looked at illusion and believed in it.

00:16:32: And that's what we have to do if you want.

00:16:35: even as a viewer You have put yourself into this situation where you really believe in it.

00:16:42: Otherwise... ...you won't get the sensation

00:16:46: Which in some way- I know there are different thoughts about words but which also sounds like believing an illusion, whether it's a bird in the glass or me as view and painting.

00:17:01: It is to believe some sense of the story that is infront you?

00:17:05: I think.

00:17:06: going back to de Kooning again which has been very important for him he says in his interview You put stick into water And if look at it looks like broken stick because it reflects on the water.

00:17:16: But do know its whole stick goes through.

00:17:19: but soon when see it as broken stick then your are in land looking at painting.

00:17:25: It's really nice, I think.

00:17:26: How he describes it there...

00:17:28: Are there any illusions that you would like to believe in?

00:17:32: The thing is when we see this in a painting and you believe in it- There are no illusion anymore!

00:17:37: Its not the trick anymore.

00:17:38: You've taken within as truth in some sense Which again is back into dialogue between inner & outer landscape Ever and I don't.

00:17:50: it's sometimes.

00:17:51: It feels like a chicken in an egg question as in which comes first, but that we are always affected by our external landscapes.

00:18:01: But how?

00:18:01: We experience external landscapes or always effected by what's happening inside of us?

00:18:05: mm-hmm

00:18:06: It sounds like there's so much dialogue that happens between you and your environment whether That environments is the studio or The forest

00:18:17: Even the city, I think also.

00:18:19: I mean now... Like imagine if you walk we always when we go in a city We refer everything to the buildings and streets but play with idea that we referred to delusions instead like the windows every reflection Instead.

00:18:35: That would have been there.

00:18:36: The main thing in this it is dead on how?

00:18:39: How he found our way

00:18:40: Would be lost though In any way.

00:18:43: totally i think but also very beautiful.

00:18:48: Lost in a beautiful way.

00:18:49: You've taken me to windows which factor into your work A lot whether it's your screen prints or made from.

00:18:54: you know that he made some drawings of Your completed paintings, Or even at time we create Windows From your home and exhibitions?

00:19:01: Or the shadow painting series you did in The Biennale.

00:19:04: like windows come up a Lot their thresholds And they're also boundary makers.

00:19:08: why are They so important To you?

00:19:10: what do they hold In your imagination?

00:19:11: where Did this object take on such life for you?

00:19:15: I think It has to Do with longing a lot

00:19:18: Longing.

00:19:18: Yeah, but you see... You sit inside and then you see real life outside somewhere on the other side.

00:19:24: I mean that there's a real life is out here and we're sitting in building somehow?

00:19:29: I mean how my schoolhood nine years since cool was only about looking after windows.

00:19:34: So interesting Andreas.

00:19:36: you know you use some of these things.

00:19:37: you say so sort of casually or But they're so much depth to it There's so much truth to them, you know like their and this is why I think art is so important in our lives because not only the end result of what it's offered to us, but even the process by which we get to that.

00:19:56: So even to think about what led you to create these pieces—these windows or illusions of Windows —even those processes are a creative process and they're also so revealing!

00:20:10: And its way touches all humanity.

00:20:14: All humanity can speak of longing in some way, shape or form.

00:20:18: Right?

00:20:18: Or thinking that the real world is on the other side... ...of something.

00:20:23: but then also makes me think again about illusions.

00:20:26: I'm

00:20:27: a master!

00:20:27: What

00:20:27: did she

00:20:28: say?!

00:20:28: I am a master of longing

00:20:33: But isn't there an aspect of illusion to this too?

00:20:36: because life's right here as well.

00:20:41: It's a failure.

00:20:42: I

00:20:43: don't know if i would call it that, but... ...I think its just part of the nature.. ..of living over a human condition in some way.

00:20:51: Everyone has it and.... But im an expert on this because I keep always having these kind of situations where visually is somewhere else.

00:21:03: It's hard to... Maybe thats why Im so upset with ambition thing also or strategy like fighting against them Because they have been within me.

00:21:12: somehow you know?

00:21:13: you're concerned with not just perception but translation.

00:21:17: I think and i think there are many ways to define translation whether it's the translation of ideas through different medium or whether its a translation that happens in active making, we as viewers don't even necessarily get see.

00:21:32: because it must come through in the work, at some capacity.

00:21:35: Where does conceptual work begin for you?

00:21:37: I think that the conceptual work is maybe an after-construction... ...I don't think there's a big difference between listening to the right colour or form of painting,... ..or listening what happened with this bird on its window.

00:21:50: or listen to next move in the painting which is also based on a feeling.

00:21:54: There's no, I mean... The conceptual work is made afterwards it's construction afterwards.

00:21:59: some people say that bird is a conceptual work and they'd said the paintings are not the conceptual works.

00:22:04: everything matters has to be made while you're doing

00:22:07: It.

00:22:07: Everything That Matters Has To Be Made While You're Doing It.

00:22:11: Are You Buddhist?

00:22:12: I

00:22:12: don't know Maybe!

00:22:15: I'm thinking of what there says Because when you say that I immediately think of this idea.

00:22:23: All that exists is the present moment, right?

00:22:25: So everything... You're saying there's only existence in present time.

00:22:30: An artwork can't be made before or after it has to have been made exactly as you do it.

00:22:37: so thats why your decisions are taken at a certain point and for anyone who writes music its totally clear but in art its not.

00:22:48: It's obvious, I think.

00:22:50: I think it is also clear when you are writing literature as well... Yeah!

00:22:55: ...I'm okay with just letting that sit and for listeners to think about….

00:22:59: I don't think there anything more to say than this.

00:23:06: Sometimes your work invites us read them like traces or records even indices rather then actual images For example, your monotypes or prints which can feel less representative of landscapes than more like the recording and registration event.

00:23:28: I think you're right there that I recorded many things afterwards in a new way just to keep it and understand it.

00:23:36: You know?

00:23:37: That was my wish for being able to be professional because You know, when I told you how open you have to be and the best paintings comes to you.

00:23:51: When your not controlling anything it comes by itself somehow The Best Things And then you can't really feel proud of it either Because its just comes there... ...and that you cant learn how do it either because you cant re-do it.

00:24:09: Then i really wanted a good worker.

00:24:12: So being Open.

00:24:13: So it comes to you being open and you can't be proud of it.

00:24:16: Yeah, exactly!

00:24:17: Someone says like oh my god I love your painting And then its not really mine either You know?

00:24:23: I don´t own it or It came...it comes by itself.

00:24:26: Then i try.

00:24:27: maybe there is a way to understand this better Or..i can build up like A knowledge about my work so that i could become professional.

00:24:36: That was also huge failure but very naïve for me.

00:24:39: But i think thats an underlying wish that I would be professional.

00:24:44: That it will feel so good to be a professional!

00:24:49: What does professional mean?

00:24:52: That i know what im doing and can do this again, and so on.

00:24:57: Is that professional or is that delusion?

00:25:00: Yeah Totally delusional.

00:25:04: The way you explained it To the particular viewer Falls right in line with your sense of being A channel Which most artists are whether or not they want to name it is that.

00:25:19: I mean, It goes back to the ancient idea of Muses right?

00:25:23: Which however you wanna think about but this sense of like a muses and as an inspirer there's a sense of receiving what is graciously given to you.

00:25:35: Yeah

00:25:35: Or choose

00:25:36: us pass through you in some way.

00:25:39: You have two shows coming up In September One with Neu-Garim Schneider and one with Barbara Ween.

00:25:47: And the ones of Barbarene, you are looking at books!

00:25:51: Can we talk about this?

00:25:52: You have your... can we talked about your interest in your work with publishing?

00:25:58: sometimes you have these small slivers of books where you make these sketchings or etchings but do tell us more about your foray into Parts of making.

00:26:11: yeah, maybe it's a little bit connected what we talked about earlier that I try to understand myself somehow That are the desire.

00:26:17: many of them are sketchbooks.

00:26:18: They're really you know like printed Like one-to-one.

00:26:22: there is also like serious or photos that i take when i go walks in The woods something and collecting things About my self some how trying To Understand Things.

00:26:30: And then i just love the idea Of Making Books.

00:26:32: i think It's so beautiful to make books.

00:26:34: its like A hobby very expensive hobby to Make Books

00:26:37: And also recording in a way.

00:26:39: You seem to make and create things by paying close attention, whether you're conscious of it or not... ...to what is happening in you and around you?

00:26:50: So I'm curious if you were to pause and think about.. ..what feels really alive for you right now What would that be?

00:26:57: How's that factoring into your work?

00:27:00: It feels really live In the studio.

00:27:03: its been so colourful lately!

00:27:06: Very strong colours And I feel a little bit ashamed of it, and also scary.

00:27:13: Also fun!

00:27:16: All at the same time.

00:27:17: Does

00:27:17: this surprise you?

00:27:18: Because its not like color...

00:27:20: Strange colors as well Like really intense red ones.

00:27:24: That's what happens in studio.

00:27:28: My paintings has always been referring to things You know, like you can see that are my interesting painting both historical painting and also with nature and everything.

00:27:39: Maybe I think maybe... ...I even took a step away from the snow memory A little bit?

00:27:46: Maybe i'm a little bit healed from it!

00:27:48: I am trying to understand what-you know.. Maybe this is colored by a wish or something but The paintings has another kind of appearance That I haven't seen before.

00:28:00: Do you think This is part of why it's both frightening and seemingly shameful for you, because all the things that we just said.

00:28:08: Yeah yeah I mean its like walking around naked showing these paintings definitely or whatever you do.

00:28:15: but i'm not sure... Because I don't have a reference to this.

00:28:19: From outside my first thought was isn't so exciting?

00:28:24: Exactly!

00:28:25: And can say while also being aware when you touch something New and almost a bit like a breakthrough in the way that you were not even sure, That we're still trying to break through something.

00:28:39: But when you touch that Yes it is so frightening but on some other bodily level It's also so exciting.

00:28:48: Yeah its very close to eachother You know?

00:28:50: Its where things matters really.

00:28:52: So at the same time are they good paintings or maybe not?

00:28:55: But thats okay too Doesn't matter.

00:28:57: Well isn't this just for make them work?

00:29:01: Thank you, I needed that to hear.

00:29:05: That's your only job!

00:29:07: Well from a viewer perspective i cannot wait to see what is happening in the studio right now.

00:29:15: so...I don't have deal with process of it but can not wait for results.

00:29:21: So thank

00:29:21: You!!

00:29:22: I really appreciate the openness and presence to move in the flow that it wanted to move because at the end of day, again its not about relationship and connection.

00:29:40: To artworks which are made but also process being alive right?

00:29:50: Being a relationship for many things.

00:29:52: So I thank you so much for this conversation.

00:29:54: Andreas Ericsson talking with me from Sweden.

00:29:57: Thank You very much.

00:30:00: Thank you, I'm glad.

00:30:02: You invited me.