Episode 18 – Wu Tsang

00:00:00: That's actually the only reason to make something, in my opinion.

00:00:02: Is if... The first kind of instinct is like well that can't be done!

00:00:06: Well then I have to do it or i have to try because the point is to try not to succeed.

00:00:10: Says Wu Sang who I met for another episode of Gallery Weekend Berlin-the art podcast.

00:00:17: My name is Inuma Okoro and I'm delighted to be speaking with artist filmmaker and performer Wu Sang Who was based in Zurich.

00:00:29: Sang moves fluidly between disciplines nightlife, film to name just a few.

00:00:37: Her multimedia work has been formative in shaping and deepening the dialogue around politics of representation histories of marginalization violence exploitation how we read and re-imagine cultural archives public and private spaces specifically about how we understand the tradition of queer and trans embodiment, in their broader discussion on how identities are created mythologized stereotyped perceived and regulated.

00:01:10: But as well is a possibilities of re-narrating recreating and reclaiming identities from public imagination on body sang.

00:01:19: as recipient for MacArthur genius grant her work has been viewed and experienced around world.

00:01:24: take modern London Amsterdam across Zurich, the Whitney & New Museum in New York, MCA Chicago and on-and-on The List Goes.

00:01:34: She has also participated in the Whitney Biennale, the Liverpool Biennally ,the Guanju Biennali and the Venice Biennaly.

00:01:42: Welcome Wu!

00:01:44: Before we do a deep dive into all things art and wuxiang I have three questions that would like to invite our guests to answer at start of this episode.

00:01:53: First one these are fun so no stress.

00:01:56: What do you think is the biggest stereotype about Berlin?

00:01:59: and Is it true?

00:02:02: Maybe that.

00:02:02: It's cheap, then it's utterly not cheap anymore.

00:02:07: No What does your favorite thing about Berlin?

00:02:11: my favorite thing About Berlin is definitely The people.

00:02:14: I have a lot of friends here some old Friends And it's always A place where i run into People That i didn't know i was gonna see.

00:02:22: its just a Mixing Place.

00:02:24: It's a great

00:02:25: for that.

00:02:25: And since this is an art podcast, I have to ask this what does the piece of art that you can't stop thinking about right now anyway?

00:02:33: Okay so i'm actually embarrassed to admit this and i'll probably get in trouble but it's The Odyssey by Christopher Nolan and...I know people hate on it!

00:02:43: Some people love it most People hate on IT!

00:02:45: I just can't Stop Thinking About It and I've watched it A few times.

00:02:49: Now..i might go again But I think the thing that i'm thinking about is storytelling and how.

00:02:55: he's sort of like a master craftsman.

00:02:59: Like, The Big Man Of Our Time you know?

00:03:02: And How He's Kind Of Created This Allegory For Talking About Hollywood.

00:03:07: That's The Thing That...I Don't Feel Like It So Much To Do With Greek Myths.

00:03:11: Its More to do with like- I Think The Matt Damon Odysseus Character Is Kind Of Him.

00:03:22: feature Hollywood, feature filmmaking has kind of destroyed our times.

00:03:26: That's the allegory that I feel like this film is telling and it's told in such a beautiful way Like...I love The Monsters!

00:03:34: I love all the monstrosity that's portrayed.

00:03:38: Um..I also loved that the gods are only alluded to as A kind-of truth beyond beyond the moment that you can know, it's not represented in a person.

00:03:52: I think its interesting to say that Athena is actually like... ...the conscience of young woman who was executed.

00:03:59: The imagery and destruction and the apology around.. ..I couldn't go home because what i had done Because I kind of committed this Deceitful act that therefore like change the world.

00:04:12: I feel like that's kind of deceitfulness.

00:04:14: That is Hollywood storytelling.

00:04:17: It gives you this impression The hero's journey IS THE STORY And thats just one way to tell a story.

00:04:24: There are so many more interesting ways To tell stories.

00:04:27: So if he's critiquing himself and the whole thing, and the casting for that reason i think its kinda amazing.

00:04:34: My quite embarrassing confession.

00:04:36: I mentioned that you move fluidly between worlds and you've worked with photography, film installation opera theater.

00:04:45: You received your art degrees from the School of The Art Institute in Chicago and your MFA from University of California Los Angeles.

00:04:52: but i feel like you became an artist through following your own instincts of blending seemingly disparate activities across sectors...I'd love to hear a bit about how this took shape for you, and also I see it as a freedom.

00:05:06: How the freedom to think can create across disciplines and across public in private space kind of mirror what you hope your work.

00:05:18: I feel like those are a few questions so jump in wherever you want to.

00:05:23: Yes, i definitely would agree that have followed my instincts and the sense that...I don't think my trajectory as a creative person has like followed any sensical path.

00:05:32: it was really going with the things that I was really felt compelled to do for example..like I've never totally identified as a visual artist?

00:05:42: I think somehow that ends up being the one that makes the most sense an audience space or a discursive space.

00:05:51: that's like really flexible to me.

00:05:53: Or I always like to say, really nerdy because it's the expectation is not.

00:05:58: you make sense to everyone.

00:06:00: It's actually just find a way to communicate.

00:06:04: that's true too, the way you're trying to communicate.

00:06:06: so it doesn't have make sense.

00:06:08: Whereas I feel like some of other mediums and also work in theater or film there is more pressure on expectation from audience or critics than you tell story In ways which actually has quite hegemonic roots You know?

00:06:21: Has quite dominant And aggressive or even violent roots.

00:06:26: So its something i've always questioned how to communicate.

00:06:34: On the other hand, I love communicating so i think that having the possibility of working across these different mediums or disciplines is the most exciting thing for me because you never know where your gonna have a new connection and encounter just like when they say hey wow!

00:06:52: I saw this thing you did ten years ago it got interested in art whatever... So thats really what motivates me.

00:07:02: How do people connect to art?

00:07:04: I love this idea of um, i think you said not having To have something makes sense.

00:07:08: I love that because we-I Think We are trained to imagine.

00:07:11: then if we can't understand the thing fully Then it's almost not valuable or Not worth our engagement.

00:07:20: And and I think what your proposing is sort Of an invitation to be able to sit in maybe like a to allow oneself room to keep discovering And to let whatever you're in front of speak into your own life.

00:07:33: This is what I'm hearing, and all this sort-of not makes sense because it's not make sense to whom as a question right?

00:07:39: Yeah!

00:07:40: And i think it translates not only into value In the sense that things are rewarded for having broader appeal But also something to recognize That appeal or that sense of broad connection.

00:07:53: It IS powerful like I feel too when I connect with someone kind of coming at me from a really far away place and so that it's almost seductive or there is like, way you can work with that as well.

00:08:05: But I think its also steeped in all the ways culture has structured in terms of power.

00:08:11: So thats just thing we always have to question At the same time not take for granted.

00:08:16: i do want start by going back a bit.

00:08:19: so we talk about trajectory development process over time.

00:08:22: A lot your works centers around how narratives of identity are, and of course this is my interpretation.

00:08:29: Are created or untransformed and reconfigured?

00:08:33: I think for individuals but also communities of people.

00:08:35: when i think of the body in regards to your work...I don't just think individual bodies..i'm thinking like collective bodies And This plays out some in Wildness

00:08:45: Your

00:08:45: acclaimed twenty-twenty documentary fiction work.

00:08:49: I know you directed and produced the film, And it was co-written with Roya Rastagar.

00:08:53: You explore a meeting of two LGBTQ plus communities A Latinx and immigrant community that gathers at The Bar... ...and group performance artists who meet their weekly.

00:09:04: Now this group actually did do this for several years before the documentary And it seems like movement, and again when I think of movements... ...I'm not just thinking dance or there's so many ways that movement has enacted in our lives.

00:09:21: Movement is still central to what you create.

00:09:24: How do YOU think about the body?

00:09:25: Individually and collectively In your work?

00:09:28: Is primarily an archive of real and imagined histories?

00:09:32: Is a medium?

00:09:34: A character?

00:09:34: Something else entirely?

00:09:37: What does the body mean for you?

00:09:40: Cinema, for example or like documentary was kind of where I started as a young artist and i think... ...I had a lot of actually twenty-twelve when I made Wildness so it's quite some time ago.

00:09:53: It is still film that I do reflect on alot.

00:09:56: there are some themes or sort of nascent forms in the work sense of what it feels to be a part of something.

00:10:11: You know, like the bar has a voice because places do speak.

00:10:16: you know.

00:10:17: or how can we tell this story not from any one person's perspective but create sort of chorus and dialogue?

00:10:27: These kinds questions have always been really central for me.

00:10:31: I think as queer people person who's mixed race or grew up in a sort of transcultural environment where I grew up like, i always have this sense of what is possible if you don't fix it with the name and word representation.

00:10:50: The things that are navigated between language essentially...I think thats something that-or understood!

00:10:59: Sorry im speaking a bit abstractly but Im trying to name The body.

00:11:05: for me is that knowledge of experience.

00:11:10: It doesn't always add up, you know?

00:11:12: I'm using sense again but it's like... How do we know it's okay to be in this space and not another?

00:11:20: You know like why did we choose this bar?

00:11:22: I'm just thinking about silver platter, you know Like why do people gather here.

00:11:25: You know what contributed.

00:11:27: What did the owner of the bar?

00:11:29: how did the DJ?

00:11:30: you know like these little things like choices It's like how we sort of collectively call each other like your safe Here, you no And i think that was something That I have always felt really informs my practice as an artist, even if I'm doing video installation.

00:11:46: It's like thinking about how do you create those spaces?

00:11:49: And i think that something working with Move by the Motion who are sort of collective artists we have been collaborating for twenty years.

00:11:57: some us We all come from nightlife Like this space of intuitively entering The space.

00:12:05: expression or sharing was always through night life And that's a sensibility, I think somehow.

00:12:11: That we tried to carry even though and were now all grannies and dumped out anymore We still carry the spirit.

00:12:20: some how or To me The idea of the silver platter having voice was it's also that spirit?

00:12:24: That's intergenerational.

00:12:25: It's like been there Exactly Like it's like child.

00:12:30: You're just you're Just getting started but you don't know what your talking about.

00:12:34: Yeah So i my character kind Of is this younger naive sort of idealistic has politics, you know like wants to protect these kinds of things that we can't actually do.

00:12:45: I think you said you approached sort more from an activism kind?

00:12:49: For sure yeah.

00:12:50: and now looking back as you continue to look on this would still say is it the same sensibility you'd hold?

00:13:00: Yeah i mean i would say that activism was one my core.

00:13:04: Educate like.

00:13:05: it's like I learn to be the kind of person that i am in The spaces of organizing and I still have friends That are very committed organizers, And I don't feel that It's-I could claim To be that but I feel Like I understand the principles Of it which is like number one.

00:13:21: Don't assume there's a solution.

00:13:22: Number two.

00:13:23: Like don't show up to A space with an idea How you want to organize people.

00:13:27: You know?

00:13:27: Its listen Learn like realize that the quality of time is actually the thing that you're doing together.

00:13:34: There's not some goal.

00:13:35: You were trying to achieve or like.

00:13:37: it's not a job.

00:13:38: your money ruins everything, you know.

00:13:39: Like.

00:13:40: these kinds of principles are like things but It's weird because then as an artist you professionalized so you never fully?

00:13:46: Your gonna inhabit a lot of contradiction once he carry this kind of values into the world Because we live in a super hyper capitalist world.

00:13:54: So you can't assume that everyone's able to meet you in that place, but also can try through the way you behave.

00:14:03: To sort of enact with each other.

00:14:06: It was interesting.

00:14:06: it is very much from a stance... What I hear there are stances of humility But not in an obsequious way You know?

00:14:15: Very much like what is possible here.

00:14:18: And uh..you talk about your collective That actually move into more.

00:14:25: how much collaboration is such a part of your work?

00:14:28: Collaboration you just mentioned.

00:14:30: Yeah,

00:14:31: pretty much I mean i think like Osma who's a part-of-move by the motion.

00:14:34: she was one of the DJs from Wildness and Daniel he's her partner...was one of other DJs of Wildness And we've been in Zurich for the last seven years together.

00:14:44: actually they now are no longer in Zurick but um But there were kind of.

00:14:48: yeah it's part of the band as we say Like The Band Just Being The Idea The gathering of the collective, who's available.

00:14:57: That sort of ethos.

00:15:00: I also think of Fred Moten Who is another collaborator?

00:15:04: Who i've actually learned quite a lot about collaboration This kind of spirit.

00:15:11: if we say We're all in a band together It's like whoever was available.

00:15:15: You know come for this set amount Of time that someone starting something but it not any one person Leads.

00:15:23: it's sort of like taking turns or you step in, You step out.

00:15:27: You know?

00:15:27: You can't always be there for every part Of It.

00:15:30: those are just you know collaboration values.

00:15:33: I guess that i learned along the way

00:15:36: which really again goes somewhat against kind of The more industry-of-the art world.

00:15:41: this sense if There is no one star Or One yeah Kind of

00:15:46: and its hard because Its not...I don't want to Glossy or romanticize it, you know It's like maintaining this practice in a field of hyper capitalism where like visual arts In particular the solo artist is The thing are like the gene to the personal genie earth.

00:16:01: There's just all This mythology around.

00:16:03: but and that sense I think we all have to find our way through.

00:16:07: I don't have like a guide for how to do it, i just can only share that i've learned... That there are places where you do things for yourself and the people your with And You kind of have to draw a line Where say were doing this for us.

00:16:20: We're actually not going.

00:16:21: take money or grant My other collaborator Tosh Basko who is my partner.

00:16:26: Actually one of first big projects together was a film we presented here in Berlin called Day In The Life Of Bliss post-wildness.

00:16:36: It was like my first attempt at making another film with this idea of more narrativizing, a docu-fiction but it's really kind of a fictional world that I use documentary approach to and we've been working together for the last fifteen years.

00:16:54: And yeah i think...i learned alot in that collaboration just about listening always thinking about a call and response, because actually Tasha's practice is more movement based.

00:17:06: She's like a movement-based artist And I don't relate as myself that Because in my head i'm more of hosting.

00:17:15: maybe Is role for me As...I think of directing as kind of hosting.

00:17:21: It creates the conditions For people to gather.

00:17:26: That's very different idea of directing than a lot of directors You know?

00:17:30: A lot of people have in their heads the idea that a director is the person who's just in charge, he has this triangle of hierarchy.

00:17:37: And there IS a triangle when you're on film set or even theater.

00:17:41: but how to use that kind workflow can be to achieve different aims other than your artistic vision so-to speak.

00:17:53: Which makes me... So much of your process.

00:17:57: It feels like it would have such an impact on the results, right?

00:18:04: On the work.

00:18:06: And I'm curious how you begin a project.

00:18:08: Do start with that topic first.

00:18:09: do you feel like relationships are very important to You?

00:18:13: so do you begin thinking oh i just love To work this person because of what they're about.

00:18:18: How did these things start for you?

00:18:22: and also feel Like you really loved literature in The arts.

00:18:27: I'm just curious works how things begin for you.

00:18:30: It's

00:18:30: both, i think it's often times people like its who...i might meet someone and be actually at the moment have a film where ive made work with this dancer And i had feeling that i want to go again.

00:18:44: That was one encounter.

00:18:46: so sometimes ill start by being This person is really..I cant stop thinking about them.

00:18:51: I feel there are more to explore their presence as a performer and this relationship to the camera.

00:19:00: I think that could certainly be true for many projects i've done with Tosh, also thinking of other dancers but it's sometimes there is conversation or even like attention thats really productive from me about how to make film when filming is impossible because the thing they are doing is impossible.

00:19:22: It's like a perfect, that is actually the only reason to make something.

00:19:25: in my opinion.

00:19:26: Is if first kind of instinct was well it can't be done Do you know?

00:19:30: And then I'm like okay well than i have to do it.

00:19:32: Or i have try because point is not to succeed You know what i mean.

00:19:36: but Then sometimes yeah just an encounter with... I'll give example with Moby Dick.

00:19:42: I heard her reading by Laura Harris and she was just reading an essay She had written about CLR James and Moby Dick.

00:19:49: And just her whole discussion, but also just reading a little excerpt of Moby dick I was like what is

00:19:55: this?

00:19:55: i need to make this film!

00:19:57: I hadn't even read the book yet.

00:19:58: But I kind-of went for it because I was Like This Is A Wild Text.

00:20:03: I Need To Just Get Into It.

00:20:05: Then I Did Then Read The Book Immediately And Actually Was Even More Wild And Rewarding.

00:20:12: Yeah I Guess It Is Really Following The Instincts.

00:20:15: I mean, it sounds like its started with this encounter but then what's sustained once you actually read the book?

00:20:22: Again.

00:20:22: It gets back to collaboration because i think somehow the ethos of move by the motion which again is sort of a circular thing Because it kind comes from everybody bringing something into it.

00:20:32: But Its This Idea Of The Exquisite Corpse Where We Work On Something And Then We Fold It Into A New Thing.

00:20:39: But We Just Something Carries Over For a while, there was a lot of exploration of the sea.

00:20:47: And that was like with Moby Dick.

00:20:49: it maybe started with moby dick but then it kind of evolved into something else.

00:20:53: How do you know when its done?

00:20:55: That's really good question.

00:20:56: But I definitely comes to feeling at some point and usually It comes with exhaustion where your like...I don't want talk about this anymore

00:21:06: But I love the willingness to stay with a thing that also, i feel goes A bit against The grain of how we're conditioned.

00:21:12: You know like it's increasingly even more so these days but To be willing to sit With something long enough for to keep revealing itself to you.

00:21:21: So okay?

00:21:22: Your work moves between so many different types Of yes mediums but Also spaces right Like clubs and galleries museums theaters Cinema...but How do you think of space as a character And a collaborator?

00:21:36: And how does the meaning of work change fundamentally depending on context in which it's experienced?

00:21:45: Yeah, that is a really great question because I've never thought about space as character.

00:21:50: Which is silly!

00:21:50: Because the silver platter was literally a character in our film.

00:21:55: Yeah totally so absolutely.

00:21:58: In Green Room?

00:21:59: Absolutely yeah thank you.

00:22:02: now i need to like... But it's true that I think, um...I feel very impacted by space.

00:22:09: Like i feel very sensitive to and like particularly sound or the way rooms sound.

00:22:16: how you can transform a space How spaces could be moved through differently?

00:22:21: I don't know what this is about.

00:22:23: again It might come just from the sensitivity of creating spaces outside The ones who are assumed we're supposed want to inhabit that we don't wanna inhabit, you know?

00:22:34: Like how do we create those spaces... ...that are the ones we want to exist but don't exist or I dunno.

00:22:41: I didn't see of whales and really wish

00:22:43: i had because it

00:22:45: sounds incredible.

00:22:46: But im even thinking about like how space works in a relationship obviously To sound Or scale Me engaging with work What happens my body In this place where sound and size are amplified.

00:23:02: It's interesting you mention of Wales because I'm actually really, iIm so happy that work is so meaningful to people like it's a-it's a work That Actually People Love in my body Of Work.

00:23:15: it was the work... I felt The Most Vulnerable About When I Made It Because There Is No Language And There'S no Story In It So Its Just An Experience.

00:23:27: I think the premise for me was, well there's an anecdote and then there is a premise.

00:23:34: The anecdote when we were filming Moby Dick... ...the day that we're supposed to film the crash of shipwreck with the whale something broke with computer so you couldn't see the whale?

00:23:45: And i was like oh my god this amazing!

00:23:47: Of course the whale cannot be seen.

00:23:50: even if im trying make this movie the whale escapes.

00:23:53: So it was really kind of struck that..I had this intention.

00:23:57: I had this sort of tagline like from below.

00:24:00: You know, it's that such a seductive idea.

00:24:02: but to actually do is at the same time as you're trying to tell the story above where men are on ship and its about life in crew which ended up being focus of film...I felt kind lost perspective of The Whale.

00:24:16: so thats why i think need make another work because i didn't manage go into like, what does that even mean?

00:24:27: And so somehow this real-time game engine technology was coming out at the time and that was really interesting to me because it was totally arbitrarily artificial.

00:24:39: The idea of you can build a world in virtual space... I'm fascinated by limitations or things don't work.

00:24:50: Like.

00:24:51: let's try create the Whales perspective as a way to say that we cannot know the whale's perspective.

00:24:55: So, that was kind of the premise.

00:24:57: and then it's just like a loop because I read somewhere that sperm whales are the deepest diving mammals on the planet Can uniquely go like much, Much deeper than we would need Like a really complicated machine to Go where they can go and They just do it every day.

00:25:20: I'm just like what's-?

00:25:20: What are the...what is that?

00:25:21: You know i Just was sort of like Obsessed about The idea Of their perspective And just That We can't Know It.

00:25:28: Beautiful though!

00:25:29: I mean..It sounds mesmerizing But going back To this Idea of Space and Spatial Engagement I Would have loved to experience such As to see what happens in me.

00:25:40: Right, as I'm experiencing this body shown to me in this way.

00:25:45: Yeah and i would say like the musicians that I worked with on of Wales um In particular Asma is the composer and Tapioa Svosve who lives in Zurich And his collaborator Jalalou Calvert Nelson did play The Saxophone and the trumpet.

00:26:00: That was a really beautiful collaboration...I am not a musician!

00:26:03: ...in the same way that I will tell you Im NOT A Dancer But Like..i love collaborating With Musicians because such a different access to the sensations of... I think we do know more than about this stuff, but in our daily lives.

00:26:23: We create society where that's not acknowledged and somehow music is one pathway.

00:26:30: at least for me as musical appreciator it feels like being open to the breath or whatever else, a practice of breathing which I particularly find in horns like when i work with horn players.

00:26:44: Like there's certain kind energy horn players have and I wonder if that just because all the oxygen they get as compared to average person?

00:26:52: Or true dancers too maybe...I don't know.

00:26:54: I really appreciate how your mind works.

00:26:56: Oh thank

00:26:57: you!

00:27:05: Again it is not one particular thing but seems I don't necessarily see a separation between in our brief exchange and how you're talking, your practice of living and making work.

00:27:21: And it feels like you allow yourself... Again this is the curiosity that we talk about.

00:27:26: but to go wherever you- I'm a visual person so i keep imagining crevices You allow yourself to morph into the crevice and say what's in here?

00:27:35: This looks interesting!

00:27:38: I mean, what more could you ask for from an artist of any kind?

00:27:40: To have that sort of willingness and just orientation to the world.

00:27:46: What it makes me think about is...I guess i've told this story in different ways but growing up as a immigrant kid with two languages or like my dad's family are particularly from China.

00:28:02: Growing up in America, the Chinese-American community is like very tight knit and places where they inhabit.

00:28:08: Like his family was in Brooklyn And like The Deep Brooklyn part out by the Rockways His parents lived in states for like forty five years Never learned English Just because you can live In your Chinatown.

00:28:23: So it's my association of being with family at least on that side.

00:28:28: Without language We didn't learn Chinese, so I always associate like spaces of comfort in certain ways.

00:28:35: There is this gap you know not being able to connect on a linguistic level but i always kind of relate that feeling how often find myself working on projects and situations where there's multi-lingual Aspect and it's like takes me a minute to be right.

00:28:51: I don't speak this language.

00:28:52: What am i doing here?

00:28:54: Do you know what I mean?

00:28:54: It even happened with Carmen because I ended up doing A lot of research on work in Seville Which is where the story of Carmen Is set.

00:29:02: And again, its like...I felt Like I was Right back In a place Of familiarity Because Spanish is a language.

00:29:07: Its almost like a second Language in LA.

00:29:10: I Mean..its like The language of LA But its the language that I didn't learn.

00:29:14: So....it Was more of a connection through the attempt to communicate, then...the ability to communicate.

00:29:21: Well

00:29:21: it sounds like- It's given you a really deep comfort with some sense of unknowability which I think is a blessing!

00:29:29: I mean that um..I think one our biggest tragedies self inflicted as we're so fixated on knowing everything and being able predict everything.

00:29:39: life just doesn't work that way.

00:29:41: yeah i don't know if would become philosophical debating about it, but what is so hard to not know?

00:29:50: Why do humans struggle with this Not-Knowing thing.

00:29:54: I think that's really a place of fear.

00:29:57: Yeah

00:29:57: It comes down at the end if you take... Because we don't..I mean its same reason like why do we or i think see connection between like why Do We always have an Other and why do other people Or why did the colonizers when they reached The country African continent?

00:30:17: why it's difference when what you don't know?

00:30:19: You seem immediately afraid of and you have to and then the impetus is overpower Right.

00:30:25: I mean this plays out in so many ways, but I often think back even took samples In our modern times like so much of the Isms are fear-based Because there's a lack of understanding and willing to understand.

00:30:41: So the immediate thing is What is unknown is fearful, and then sadly it becomes an.

00:30:48: I must overpower.

00:30:50: Right?

00:30:50: This of course super simplistic!

00:30:53: Yeah we can talk about this on so many levels with what's happening in the world today And i think like... In the artworks a thing that people experience if there are ways to sit down with discomfort Sometimes maybe its using some artistic tools Beauty or really nice lighting, the sound is really fun here.

00:31:18: Or the story's really entertaining.

00:31:19: You know it's like seduce people and then try to introduce a level of something unknown To sort of encourage that discomfort.

00:31:29: And you've kind of alluded to this little bit with...you actually enjoy what can't be captured in a sense.

00:31:36: So I'm thinking about your use of camera.

00:31:41: The question I had was, what does the camera still fail to capture about a live encounter between bodies in a room?

00:31:46: But then i also was wondering is even with live bodies isn't there always some sort of impossibility being fully seen regardless at the medium whether it's live or camera.

00:31:58: Yeah!

00:31:58: I mean...I feel like

00:31:59: as-in

00:31:59: the last six years I've worked increasingly on live theatrical stage projects and I have learned so much because to that, the discipline of theater as visual artist.

00:32:14: I had a bit of initially like an naive sort of projection that live performance was somehow more inherently evading representation or evading the framing device for example because to me the camera is the ultimate framing device.

00:32:30: it's the ultimate manipulation how something is presented.

00:32:36: But actually, I think now understand that theatre just has the exact same amount of potential weight representation on it.

00:32:45: It's like a different set of conventions.

00:32:47: There is more of a cacophony perspective with alive performance but there still is the regime of representation present.

00:32:55: I will talk about Carmen here because somehow this journey for me was...

00:33:01: And that's what you're presenting.

00:33:03: Yeah, and actually one of the two films is The Most Recent Work and it grew out of a live performance That we just finished in Ghent called Strike.

00:33:12: It was sort of embarrassingly I could say like a post-Carmen because We did Karman the opera.

00:33:20: then we were like let's do another one Because I think we got trapped in the representation of Carmen.

00:33:28: The first time around when we did that opera.

00:33:30: so even though We completely rewrote the music, we completely re-wrote like we completely messed with Like the frame like this sort of critical frame Of the piece?

00:33:39: We were still telling the story and

00:33:42: That's

00:33:42: kind of interesting thing is by the time it got to strike There was this realization Yeah, theater is still a realm where we have a character.

00:33:53: We have story.

00:33:54: like people are on stage They're embodying.

00:33:56: it's sort of better to just start from the premise that this can't be completely disrupted.

00:34:02: So let's play with that instead, this is what we're doing.

00:34:06: We are getting together.

00:34:08: Could you give me in a nutshell What were trying to do With your first iterations of redoing Carmen?

00:34:14: Right so eight years ago I had a conversation with Fred actually because Usually projects start some kind of exchange or the collaborator and then That particular case i knew was going to Zurich And there was possibility To work on stage like bigger scale And I had always been interested in opera and i said, would you want to think about an opera together?

00:34:36: He said what about Carmen.

00:34:37: And I remember that really surprised me because I was like oh that's such a cheesy opera who wants the work on Carmen?

00:34:44: but actually some of things that were initially brought up That we're starting points for us In The Researchers kind of just thinking About the musicality Bizet Was trying To sort Of Reach For This Sort Of Oriental idea of Spain, Spain being not Europe or like Carmen in particular.

00:34:59: Being this kind of figure of anti-European she represented all these different sub layers of subalternities.

00:35:07: a woman maybe a sex worker factory worker...like all these things.

00:35:11: She somehow as a character had to embody every single thing that was like anti European.

00:35:17: It's the threat to purity of western tonality and that is why opera is so popular.

00:35:22: You know, it's a place that signifies this troubled land where there are so many migrants from so much history of empire shifting like centers of control shifting Catholicism like the Arab world shifting, you know?

00:35:38: So it's all there.

00:35:39: It's almost too much there!

00:35:40: You know its to saturated and so that is kind of a problem with Carmen.

00:35:44: That was where I started as well Like i kinda love saturation in these problems.

00:35:48: but then how do deal with them?

00:35:50: And this question on How Do U Know When You're Done Was when I felt like I had reached a place Where I could let go.. It was kind of realization that it can't be worked on Almost or doesn't need to work because actually There are always ways we play material.

00:36:06: but it's not about doing better or revising, critiquing even.

00:36:12: It just somehow moves through you.

00:36:17: You appreciate every single adaptation because you see what people are wrestling with and then actually is that your like.

00:36:24: oh I just appreciated this something people can't let go of.

00:36:27: She won't leave YOU alone.

00:36:28: We cant' let her go.

00:36:30: we can't leave her alone But also she doesn't leave us alone.

00:36:32: This says returning back to the openness a result is right for like.

00:36:38: so that brings you to this, the work that you're presenting.

00:36:41: This week and I'm gonna ask you it's your new solo exhibition at Gallery Isabella Battalotti where you bring together these two moving image in multi-channel installations.

00:36:50: one is new created this year called On Our Way To The General Strike which he began telling me about And the other is A Twenty-Twenty Four Piece La Gran Mentira De La Muerta And the show title, will you pronounce that because I cannot pronounce this?

00:37:06: Metike.

00:37:07: It's a Greek concept.

00:37:09: in my personal case it comes from a poem Fred wrote as part of dialogue we were having about Carmen.

00:37:14: actually but meaning is simply like in the feminine form its like other person who sort living outside citizenship into society.

00:37:26: Actually there was just casual conversation where talking about Carmen in relation to this idea of the foreigner, or a concept he has about the impossible domestics.

00:37:38: It's like the female worker who is traditionally in a domestic role but also kind of embodies the feminine for society and therefore she must be

00:37:49: killed.".

00:37:50: this actually cannot be solved.

00:37:56: So

00:37:57: let us look at it from that perspective, right?

00:37:59: Hence the new work.

00:38:00: do you want to talk a little bit about

00:38:02: That?

00:38:02: yeah I mean i would just say It is literally like The coda or the sort of release Of research...I think its Just..it's Like A kind of visual poem.

00:38:11: What I started with was that I realized I had Hundreds maybe thousands of Carmen adaptations Because I'd been just collecting them in the Research And I Sort-of Had This Weird Idea To Do Like A Chris Marker Type Clockish type Carmen.

00:38:27: that was just the starting point.

00:38:29: But then once we started editing it got way crazier because I think somehow That's what Carmen does to you.

00:38:35: I feel like she just starts appearing everywhere.

00:38:38: So it became almost like hallucinatory for us, and i say Us meaning my editor

00:38:41: Jerome This idea of multiple adaptations And I'm thinking about beyond even Again, thinking of process itself as an art form actually.

00:38:53: This idea of multiple adaptations is just now bringing up for me like what would it mean to think about that and beyond this project?

00:39:02: What we permit in our own lives individually and collectively?

00:39:05: do we even make room for multiple adaptations?

00:39:08: Like if we give ourselves that freedom And that curiosity I'm sort of willing us to go into those crevices.

00:39:16: Again, it's coming back to the sphere based but all that is unknown.

00:39:21: You know how sometimes in our lives we stay within what is comfortable simply because its known even though We Know It Is Not The Place To Be Whether Its A Relationship Whatever It Is.

00:39:31: So i think this thing you spin around of unknowability actually there so much more There just a lot too.

00:39:40: yeah Im actually curious like when how we might apply these principles to our lives like if you were thinking of an example.

00:39:49: Yeah,

00:39:49: I'm thinking a couple things with the histories and narratives that don't question about ourselves or other people in ways where they can get trapped into their own sense of this is who i am and who need be?

00:40:01: Or does it have to show up in the world...or profession..I just am really taken by this word adaptation right?

00:40:10: Where do we permit in our lives and the world.

00:40:14: And also, yeah... In ways that we see other living things.

00:40:19: I just think there's a lot of room That as humans refuse to allow ourselves move-in because We're determined.

00:40:26: it is this way You know?

00:40:28: Or you are this way The rules for relationship or this way.

00:40:32: When you talk about adaptation It makes me think again about loosening our relationship To their original idea Belonging to.

00:40:43: you know that there's something kind of generated

00:40:46: when you ask her an example.

00:40:47: But no ability is the sense like the more.

00:40:49: You're able To let go off.

00:40:51: I think The more, you are able to enter That space Consequently also the more your Able to release control in general and i Think the ability to re-release Control it can Also create.

00:41:00: how?

00:41:00: You think about power.

00:41:02: so i think There Are all these connections could really apply to how we live as a society.

00:41:08: The fact that we're talking about art and it leads these conversations is, I think... Really beautiful!

00:41:14: This is what art you know?

00:41:15: It's the beautiful kind of...

00:41:17: Yeah actually he was just making me think one my sort-of like mentor figures in when i was young filmmaker Jose Muñoz because When I made Wildness He Was Writing About A Bit And ...he had written this book.

00:41:29: Disidentifications That I Loved Or Just I Think About Like Vaginal Davis or elder trans performers that have inspired me and or even my collaboration with Tosh because we met when she was a drag performer so to speak.

00:41:41: it's just this kind of genre our realm of like playing with the familiar.

00:41:47: And how that such a shared art production mode of making, The references are certainly not belonging to anyone.

00:41:55: It's about feeling free That you can recombine them Or something artistically or something.

00:42:06: I'm so excited to see these works here in Berlin, i am curious though especially if this is like the code artwork are there some questions that even you may not want share them but... Are they new or evolving?

00:42:20: question?

00:42:20: That your carrying into next work?

00:42:23: yeah for sure!

00:42:24: There's a line on film.

00:42:27: Does it keep you from asking the question or when you finally remember the question, You can let go?

00:42:32: It's a second question.

00:42:34: Is thing which is like what are we doing here?

00:42:38: Why Are We Being Artists Like why are in this room?

00:42:42: That's The Question.

00:42:43: So I think actually that is the question i'm carrying to next project.

00:42:47: We do have three closing questions.

00:42:49: so first one What is your favorite tool?

00:42:51: Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed to answer this but My collaborator Andrew Yee once told me that my love language is spreadsheets.

00:42:58: What's the last lesson you learned?

00:43:00: I learned...this week That there was always something going wrong.

00:43:10: You think your getting better and more professional at your craft But theres always something gonna go wrong.

00:43:15: So like thats actually the best attitude to show up with.

00:43:18: what are you curious about right now?

00:43:21: Oh, I'm really curious about building my own tech actually.

00:43:26: That's what i've been trying to be curious about right now.

00:43:28: I am trying to learn how to communicate with people when the grid goes down.

00:43:33: so um... Trying to share those resources and take classes online And everything.

00:43:38: This is as good a place to end as any.

00:43:40: Thank you so much Woo for your time.

00:43:42: Thanks You really enjoyed it.

00:43:46: Go see The Show!

00:43:47: It opens tonight and into the future, because I don't know when you'll hear this.

00:43:58: Thank You!